When children go inactive in the church

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RenLass
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When children go inactive in the church

Postby RenLass » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 01:50 am

As some of you know, I have 5 beautiful daughters who are all, in their own ways, good girls. We have raised them in our church all their lives and knowing that teenagers usually rebel, we expected they would go through a period where they would resent our active church involvment. When our first child went through it, it was very difficult on us, but with the support and wisdom of dear friends and family members we were able to step back and let her find her own answers. We DID let her know that although we required her to still attend church meetings, we didn't require her to believe. And that if she still felt that way at 18, she was, of course, free to choose her own way. But as her parents, we believed Heavenly Father had sent her to our home for a reason, and that it was our responsibility to teach her the gospel while she was in our care, and when she was an adult she could choose for herself. It took a year and a half, but she found her faith and finds joy and peace in it.

Now however, we are faced with her 16 year old sister, who is as different from her sister as night and day. She has been going through the rebellious "I hate church" stage for over a year now, and we have told her the same things we told her sister. But it isn't getting any better, only worse. Now she has come to us and declared that she can't continue living our way anymore. She hates our church, she hates the people ("hypocrites") in it, she resents us for forcing her to attend, and she wants out. Now.

My husband, who grew up very conservative, thinks we should just ride the storm and keep things the way they are. I have this feeling that with this one, requiring church attendance may just drive a permanent wedge between her and faith. Any of you who are LDS know how many meetings we attend. I have been thinking that letting her choose to skip all but the main sacrament meeting might give her the freedom she is craving right now and take away her point of rebellion. She could then explore different ways of life while still under the protection of the Spirit in the family home. If we make her wait until she is 18, this one is just stubborn enough to do her exploring then even if there is no longer a need, just to prove some point. And the trouble that a 16 year old could face is nothing compared to the trouble an 18 year old could get in to!

The woman of faith in me is crying out not to let go. Never to stop trying. Do a better job teaching, etc. My husband is worried about the example she will be setting for the three younger sisters, and worried about the precedent that it might set for them as well. All valid concerns.

I just need some opinions from other people who understand how eternally important faith is and membership in the church. I know there are some board members who don't believe in God, or who have left the LDS church or other churches and may silently applaud her efforts to "escape" but I would ask you , kindly, not to turn this into a debate of whether the gospel is true or not. What I want is opinions from people who do believe that there is a God, who do believe that the church you belong to matters, who do believe that parents have sacred duties to teach their children to honor and follow the Lord.

Do we hold strong and say "this is the way it is done in our house and so you need to do this until you leave home"? Do we give her "permission" to go inactive, and risk the affect it will have on the other children at home as well as the other youth in our church? Is there some other alternative we haven't thought of yet? This is breaking my heart and I don't want to react without thought and cause further harm to her fragile spirit. I want to think about all the options and possible consequences beforehand so I can make a better thought out plan of action. What would YOU do if this was your child?

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Postby RenLass » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 01:58 am

A little bit more to take into consideration. Her Bishop, or ecclesiastic leader, is also her uncle and her hatred of all things religious has poisened her relationship with him, so having him get involved would be counter-productive.

She has also been on medication for depression for over a year now (thanks to some very faulty genes she got from her mother's family) but it appears as if she may be cutting herself again, and her counselor at school called to say she was concerned that she may be considering suicide again. So although we are keeping on eye on that along with her doctor, I am still concerned with how our decisions will affect her mental health as well as her spiritual health.

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Postby Card » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 02:21 am

Um... I probably don't have the best advice to give on the subject, but it sounds to me like forcing her to go to church isn't actually helping anything. I also don't think, at this point, that allowing her to not go to church would be setting a worse example for younger siblings than if she is "cutting herself."

I probably have three suggestions.

1- Pray & counsel with the Lord
2- Decide what expectations you and your husband have for those who live in your home. (Do you allow people to drink there, have intimate relationships with others there, etc? Is church attendance one of those?) Make consequences of those choices be known.
3- When you allow children to make choices that are contrary to advice that you give them (assuming that you are communicating why you feel that way), still let them know that you love them, in spite of their choices. Then allow them to choose for themselves. If there are repurcussions for their decisions, follow through.

When you can't teach them, love them, and eventually a teaching moment will come (or so they said at the leadership broadcast on Saturday).

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Postby Ryan Reeder » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 03:44 am

I'm sorry for the pain and difficulty your family is going through in this ordeal, including the pain your daughter is suffering.

I'm not a parent, and even if I were, I wouldn't be the parent of your daughter. As you've indicated, every child--and person--is different. What may work with one child may not work with another.

There is One who is also a parent of your daughter, though, and loves her as much or more than you do. Thus, I commend the advice which Card mentioned, which was probably the first thing you did, to "pray and counsel with the Lord."

I may not know much about parenting, but I do know that this life has a good deal of adversity in it for all of us. Platitudes may be harder to put into practice in the crucible of the experience, but they're still true. We're expected to endure well whatever trials we may experience in this life. That means patience, faith, trust in the Lord, and good cheer. Wayward children can be one of those things we experience. It doesn't mean the parents fell short. Some of the greatest people in earth's history have had to pass such a trial. It happened to Lehi and Sariah. It happened to Adam and Eve. A happier ending resulted in the case of Alma the Elder and his wife. But even the Father lost a third of his children.

I would say, as in the case of the father of the Prodigal Son, to never give up. Whatever choices she makes, keep loving her. Never give up.

Just last Conference, (page 10 in the November 2006 Ensign), Elder Richard Winkel quoted Orson Whitney speaking in the April 1929 Conference quoting Joseph Smith with what may be some comforting words on this subject. Here's a more complete quote of what Elder Whitney said:

You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don't give them up. Don't cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours—long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.Who are these straying sheep—these wayward sons and daughters? They are children of the Covenant, heirs to the promises, and have received, if baptized, the gift of the Holy Ghost, which makes manifest the things of God. Could all that go for naught?

(Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report, April 1929, Third Day--Morning Meeting, 110).


I wish I could say more. I can't say, "Good luck, hold on, this will all be over soon." I do recall a couple of stories that have been in the news around here lately. Two families in Salt Lake, the Cerans and Williams, in separate incidents, one on Christmas Eve, the other a few days ago, were involved in traffic accidents wherein each family lost several members. Drinking was suspected of being a factor in both cases. In both cases, the father, having just lost his wife and at least two children, expressed forgiveness for the other driver, and urged the community to pray for the other driver who was then being held in custody. In the midst of their own pain, they empathized and reached out to another who was dealing with pain that would otherwise have been largely ignored by the community. I found that incredibly moving. Perhaps that teaches us another lesson. In the midst of our suffering, we can reach out to others who are also suffering.

May you and your family be blessed with similar strength and fortitude in your trials.

(Adhis, and any others who may be lurking and need it, that goes for you too).

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Postby WiseNLucky » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 07:10 am

RenLass wrote:She has also been on medication for depression for over a year now (thanks to some very faulty genes she got from her mother's family) but it appears as if she may be cutting herself again, and her counselor at school called to say she was concerned that she may be considering suicide again. So although we are keeping on eye on that along with her doctor, I am still concerned with how our decisions will affect her mental health as well as her spiritual health.


I'm going to see if I can get WW to chime in on this one. She has first-hand experience with these issues.
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RenLass
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Postby RenLass » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 12:28 pm

Thank you all. Ryan, your words of comfort especially help me. As Momma knows, I lost my dear mother-in-law very unexpectedly last month and I was thinking about my pain at her loss and my pain at my daughter's crisis of faith. With mom, there was an undergirding strength of hope and joy, because I knew she was one of the best women around and I had been blessed to know her. She was a faithful daughter of God all her life and had remained true to her covenants and I was assured I would see her again one day, and I knew she was in a happy place.

Whereas my daughter had no assurances as such yet.

I was thinking how grateful I was for the gospel to help me with the loss of mom, grateful for the Atonement that made resurrection and exaltation possible for us. But then I started thinking about the other aspect of the atonement. The part that makes it possible for the wandering lamb to return home as well, and what a comfort that could be as well if I could just let it.

It's funny that Ryan mentioned the Prodigal Son because that was where my thoughts led me next. And I realized with a clarity that I was in a similar situation. Although my oldest had her crisis of faith, I never doubted or worried that she would make the kinds of mistakes that every parent worries about. It just wasn't really in her nature to explore the dark side of life and she was observant and able to learn from others mistakes. She is like the eldest son who the father could always depend upon.

My second born, however would easily take the money and run, so to speak. She has to experience the mistakes to learn from them. And my greatest fear, of course, is that she won't realize how good her life with us was until she is forced to eat with the swine. But she is one of His. She has been baptized. She was born under the covenant. And He will not lose one of His own. I just hope and pray that I don't do something that will cause her learning curve to take longer than necessary.

Wise, I would love to hear from Wisewoman. I know that the depression affects how my daughter comprehends her life. I just am not sure if tough love is the right approach, or if a gentle hand at this time would be better.

For now we have decided to let her cut out the early morning seminary. I think the sleep is more important to her wellbeing right now, and since she isn't trying to get into a church school, it really won't matter if she graduates from seminary anyway. We have only asked that she give seminary a try again next year for the first month before giving it up again. As for the other meetings - well, we'll give it a month for her new meds to kick in and see how things are going with her before deciding to let her cut anything else.

I hope you all don't mind if I continue to occasionally vent here and ask for advice. I of course talk with my husband and the Lord about this, but I'm just one of those women who need to talk things through with others and get different viewpoints to help me process what I want to do, and I can't talk to anyone here in the ward because I Don't want to prejudice anyone against my daughter. At least in this forum none of you will ever meet her personally and know who she is. (Except for Momma and Zesdy, who already know her and love her anyway.)

Well, Zesdy is on a plane at this very moment flying out here to Texas to see us, and that will cheer our whole family up to no end.

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Postby switz42 » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 03:18 pm

I am not a parent, but I have several brothers who have made choices that my parents wish they had not made and who are now inactive. My older brother has not been to church in more than twelve years, except for my grandfather's funeral almost three years ago.

I was talking to my mother on the phone a couple of months ago, and this topic came up. She was asking me what she and my father did wrong in raising my brothers. I pointed out that all seven of us had the same upbringing, same standards, same gospel instruction, etc., and that some of us had chosen to live the way we had been taught and some of us had not. Sometimes children just make bad decisions and there's nothing you can do to stop them, or to prevent the consequences of those actions.
What you can do is continue to love them, give them all the support you can and keep them in your prayers.

It's hard to watch people that you love choose things that you know will not bring them happiness. I pray that you will feel comfort as you go through this time, and I'm sorry I'm not more help.
Last edited by switz42 on Fri 16 Feb, 2007 01:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Momma Snider » Thu 15 Feb, 2007 07:14 pm

switz, my family (growing up) was the same as yours -- the three boys dropped out, and the three girls stayed with the church, although we certainly made mistakes along the way. One brother died at 20, so we assume he's back now, one came back at age 49 after years of drug addiction, and one recently finally took the steps to have his name removed from church records so his home teachers would quit bothering him. I know my parents wondered why, too. I think it just shows that people are different, and some kids just make wrong decisions, like you said.

Ren, I hadn't realized it was this bad. And it's hard to say what I would do, much less what you should do. Some of my reactions to my assorted kids' wanderings have surprised me, even when I thought I was prepared.

That being said, here's the one thing I thought of. We can't give permission for our kids to break a commandment, because they aren't our commandments. We can accept their choices, but we can't let them think it's okay because we allow it. Along those lines, though, I'm thinking that sacrament meeting is the only one that we're commanded to attend, so maybe letting her stop the others is a good solution for now.

And then I don't know what you do if she refuses to go. I know you don't give any real ultimatums, like "If you don't go to church you don't live here," because you've got to stay as close as you can.

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Postby RenLass » Fri 16 Feb, 2007 12:31 am

Along those lines, though, I'm thinking that sacrament meeting is the only one that we're commanded to attend, so maybe letting her stop the others is a good solution for now.
I was thinking the same thing, Momma. Our rules we need to stand firm on our that she attend sacrament meeting, and family prayer and scripture time. But I'm willing to give a little on anything else. And really, she has been going to all the meetings right now, because we have required it. She just goes very ungracefully and resentfully.

Ren, I hadn't realized it was this bad.
Yes, that's why I have been so stressed out. Nobody wants to believe that their own child could really go through with suicide, and she has always been such a drama queen that I wonder if she isn't just putting on a show to get her way. But when she starts cutting - then I get worried.

The one thing I miss most since moving to Texas is being able to "run away" to your house for my "Snide Fix" when my kids have stretched me to the edge of my limits. I knew I could always relax into the peace of your livingroom and maybe get some straightforward advice from you or SnideDad. Well, for now life goes on.

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Postby bCurt » Fri 16 Feb, 2007 10:15 am

Not an easy situation to deal with, RenLass. I think your best efforts will have to happen at home - family study and prayer. You're dealing with a multi-layered situation, the complication being her depression. Her connection to her family is, IMO, more important than her connection to anything else right now. If she, through your efforts at home, can find a personal connection to her Father in Heaven and can find comfort from that relationship it will go a long for her in the future.

I can't really compare my family's situation to yours. My father was not active in church most of my life. Religion was primarily practiced only at church (though the values were present at home) with sporadic attempts by mother at family prayer and scripture reading (sans my father) and FHE (sans my father). So, we were handicapped right off the bat. When my brother started to complain fervently about going to church at around 14 there was not much my mother could do and without a foundation at home to fall back to, he has been lost ever since.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that I have realized from experience how it is essential that religion's primary focal point should be at home. Habits of study and prayer begin and are established there. Too often we become reliant solely on what we get at Church and that is where our relationship with God is alone. Our church attendance should reinforce, through service to others and in renewing our covenants, a relationship we have established in our personal and family efforts.

So, while it may be difficult to get her in the doors of church, if you have established your religion in the home she will not lose its influence. The best example will come from you, not from those she calls hypocrites at church. Coupled with your example (and that of the rest of your family) will be the love she receives at home. There is hope and strength available and direction provided as you turn to your Heavenly Father in fervent prayer.

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Postby hotel manager » Fri 16 Feb, 2007 12:50 pm

I don't know if what I have to say on this will help, but I was (am?) a pretty rebellious soul, and fought incessantly with my parents about church from age 15-18. I felt like I was being forced to be Mormon, and that did not set well with me, given what the Mormons teach about agency (Satan's plan and all).

So here's my thing: pick your battles; choose what's really important, and let the rest go. To me, what's really important are the questions that get asked to determine temple worthiness. The other stuff is mostly ancillary, and designed to help you reach the point where you can answer the temple recommend questions correctly. You can answer the questions correctly if you don't go to seminary or even Sunday School. You cannot answer the questions correctly if you don't attend Sacrament Meeting, because the renewal of baptismal covenants is essential to the basic gospel principle of repentence.

On the "hypocrites" thing, I really struggled with that as a teenager. About the time you turn 15, the BS detector in your brain turns on, and you start to see that what people say and what they do are different. But here's the thing I discovered, and it took years: the principles are perfect. If you follow them, you are better off. If you don't, you are worse off. People make mistakes, and most are doing the best they can most of the time. Just because they do something that is not in line with the principles of the gospel does not diminish the principle itself. It just makes it harder for that person, and sometimes for people that love and care for that person. But, if you think about it, everyone is better off if they embrace and live the basic principles taught by the Savior.

Those are the principles that you fight for.

Personally, I love the intellectual stimulation of theology. So, honestly, one of the things that helped me a lot was going to services of other religions. (Note: many LDS people are scared of this but truthfully, most of them I could tell in a matter of seconds that it was not for me. I really believe in the "marketplace of ideas" theory, and that truth will become self-evident when put side by side against ideas that are less appealing. I mean, Joseph Smith did not take his mom's word for it...) My mom still made me go to sacrament meeting but I told her I wanted to check out other religions because exposure to just one could not allow me to develop a testimony. I studied a lot of religions and ended up back where I started. But the journey was vital to my learning that I am happiest when I follow the principles set forth by the Savior and his chosen servants.

Not every story has my ending. I have a brother who will likely never be active in the Mormon church - same parents and same fights about religion. Not everyone chooses to live the principles that will give them their best life. Agency is the great eternal trump card, and without it there's no progression for anyone. That's why you have to pick the most important eternal principles and demand that those principles be followed in your home. It's those core principles that will be the foundation for her to realize what will make her the happiest. If she chooses a different path, you can know that she has those core principles to guide her choices and you will not stop loving her.
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Postby Momma Snider » Fri 16 Feb, 2007 02:17 pm

Good job, hotel! I'm loving reading some of these testimonies, even as I'm worrying about Ren's daughter.

One other thing I thought of: it's good that you're taking all these opinions and experiences into consideration, but I'm really glad to know that you and your husband are going to make the ultimate decisions, NOT based on what anyone else thinks you should do. There is no one right answer for everyone. I used to have a friend whose kids were younger than mine, and she ALWAYS knew exactly what everyone else should do, because she'd heard it in a seminar or a child development class or Institute or someplace. One time she told me that my youngest brother had gone inactive because my parents let him. "All you have to do," she stated, "is, if he says he's not going to church, stay home with him. He will realize that he's made you miss something important, and he'll go the next week." I guess that worked for somebody sometime, but it's certainly not fail proof. What was funny that about six months later she was telling me about a family she knew, and the girl had quit going to church, and she was aghast that the mother had quit going, too. "What kind of example is that?" she asked.

And, as a general word of advice which I know doesn't apply to you, make sure you're doing what you do out of love for the child and his or her best interests, and not because of fear of what other people will think of you.

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Postby Card » Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:58 pm

Momma, that is a fantastic story about a girl who knows everything. And, I suppose that her technique may work, but it's also manipulative and still doesn't inspire a person to go to church for the right reasons. I suppose that threats would work, as well, like threatening to kill the cat, take her clothes and bed, or to ground her forever. :D

Anyway, I don't think that anyone on this board CAN give you THE right answer of what to do, RenLass. That's why I say pray. And remember that some results and answers to prayer are eventual results.

(This is what I think) But, still, I really like what people have said about the family scripture and prayer time. I'd add family home evening to that, as well. Even if she disagrees with going to church, she is still a part of the family and should participate in family activities and accomplish her responsibilities relating to the family.

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Postby jds88 » Fri 16 Feb, 2007 07:24 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Momma S and Hotel Manager. Keep her involved in the family activities, but otherwise just let her know that you expect her to be doing SOMETHING to further her spiritual development--going to another church, or engaging in personal study while the family's off at church, or whatever. And follow up with her on it--ask her what she's learning periodically, and to the extent that she learns good principles be supportive as she applies them in her life.

As long as you can inculcate in her a desire for spiritual progression and a love of truth (whatever the source), then I'd say odds are pretty good that she'll eventually decide that she can spiritually progress further with the Church and its doctrines than she can without it.

--Jim

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Postby RenLass » Sat 17 Feb, 2007 12:38 am

You guys are wonderful! Both comfort and thoughts to think about. The scriptures say to study it out in your mind and then to pray about it. This type of discussion gives me thoughts and ideas to study. Some feel right for my situation, some don't, and it gives me something to pray about.

And hearing some of your experiences strengthen my testimony even more in the gospel. So thank you for sharing. :D

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Postby WiseNLucky » Sat 17 Feb, 2007 05:29 pm

Ren,

I'm so sorry that I haven't asked WW to comment yet. Entirely my fault and not hers! I'm going to talk to her right now about it!

You are getting some really good thought points for your prayers. I just wonder at the thoughts of a person who struggles with depression/cutting/medication and is still active LDS. We all come to this planet with our weaknesses -- I'm glad I have mine and not hers!
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Postby deepdish » Sun 18 Feb, 2007 04:52 pm

Ren, my two cents.

You've gotten a lot of very good advice. One thing I'm wondering about, though, is with the social and emotional problems you've described, is it possible that she is using the Church as her scapegoat? I'm sensing kind-of a "if I could just end Church everythng would be so much better" vibe.

Perhaps letting her tone that aspect of her life down would show her that Church isn't the problem; in fact its more of a support than she realized.

Just my thoughts.
Chad

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Postby Momma Snider » Sun 18 Feb, 2007 05:24 pm

Good, good point, deepdish! I think that may happen a lot more often than we notice.

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Postby Slash the Berzerker » Wed 21 Feb, 2007 12:59 am

Or, maybe, and I know this is a wild stretch, she might have decided that her parent's religion is not true/the right one for her.

When I left my parents religion it was because I became absolutely sure it was not true, and no amount of praying on their part made me come back.

*shrug*

I don't know your daughter at all. But sometimes this sort of thing is entirely irrational, and sometimes it is entirely rational, ie, the end result of a lot of thinking. Maybe blaming it on other stuff is selling her short.

But what do I know, I am a godless heathen now.

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Postby Slash the Berzerker » Wed 21 Feb, 2007 01:01 am

Oh, and Jeri made me lurk by promising me a colonic forum. I can't find it though.


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