Tithing

The place for religious discussions -- doctrinal or cultural, Mormon or otherwise.

Moderators: Lady Celtic, Eric's Moderator Brother, seespot, Sara without the H

User avatar
Penelope
Posts: 684
Joined: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 03:25 pm
Location: Orem

Postby Penelope » Tue 27 May, 2008 02:53 pm

Karen wrote:That's cool you got to speak last. I was honestly starting to believe it was official church policy to end with a male speaker because I've never seen a woman end the meeting. That always bothered me. Maybe it's because I'm female and relate better to female speakers, but I think by and large women are better speakers and I'd like to end meetings on a high note.

Of course, my ward is particularly weird in that department. I have not been asked to speak in church and I don't think I will be because my husband is not active. My ward likes to have complete couples speak, with the wife first and the (dull) husband finishing.

I apologize to you male speakers who may be extremely uplifting and the perfect way to end Sacrament meeting. Please visit my ward! We need your kind!


Our ward rarely has couples speak on the same day, unless it's a senior couple about to leave on a mission. I like this practice for several reasons, particularly because my husband and I aren't both stressed out about preparing talks on the same weekend and there is someone to sit with the kids during the meeting.

Our ward also has unrelated people give the opening and closing prayers. It's usually a man and a woman, but not always.

My husband is an excellent speaker--he's very good at keeping the congregation's attention. Sometimes he says something a wee bit embarrassing, but he's never wildly inappropriate.

I know it's too late for InOregon's purposes, but I have a firm testimony of tithing, not just from the times I've paid, but from the few times I've gotten off track!
The difference in our financial stability and even our ability to handle our money during those few non-tithing-consistent times is remarkable.
"When I grow up I want to have nose hairs just like you and Daddy!" Laura, age 3

User avatar
steelem
Posts: 1204
Joined: Wed 19 May, 2004 09:29 pm
Location: Mesa is a dot to me, AZ
Contact:

Postby steelem » Tue 27 May, 2008 07:24 pm

We moved into our ward (which split, but hey) 2 years ago and I haven't been asked to talk. I think the Bishopric doesn't want to upset me, because I'm the Nursery coordinator and very happy about my job and have told them not to release me. They work hard to keep me happy. :wink:
Friendship doesn't make you fly, jellyfish do. Duh.

User avatar
Card
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:25 am
Location: Monopoly Board, UT

Re: Tithing

Postby Card » Tue 04 Sep, 2012 05:44 pm

Okay, people. I want your opinions on two tithing issues:

1. Do you pay tithing on the proceeds from the sale of your car?

2. If you go on the Price Is Right and win, do you pay tithing on it? Do you pay on the actual retail price? Do you consider this gambling?

Discuss.

Thank you.

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Re: Tithing

Postby Momma Snider » Tue 04 Sep, 2012 09:14 pm

I've thought about the car issue before, and I think what I decided is that I would pay tithing on any profit from a sale. In general, a normal consumer gets less from selling a car than they paid for it, so they wouldn't pay tithing, but someone who buys and sells them would pay.

I would definitely pay tithing on Price is Right winnings, or other game shows. I don't know that I'd go with the "retail price" listed on the show, though, because those seem to be pretty inflated to me. In real life I'd probably end up selling anything I won, so I'd pay tithing on that.

I don't consider game shows, etc. to be gambling, since it doesn't cost anything.

I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others, though.

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby SDR » Thu 06 Sep, 2012 01:39 am

I agree with Momma regarding the selling of personal cars and the difference between that and buying cheap and selling for a profit.

As for tithing on game show winnings of products vs cash, I would also try to find the real value of the products and tithe on that. Or wait until I sell it or trade it in and tithe on that. Or figure out what the monthly payment would have been and tithe extra on that amount over time. Perhaps the easiest solution is let the IRS tell you what the taxable value is and go with that.

Many people pay tithe from their gross income, but what if they paid 90% in taxes? Note that was the maximum effective rate once upon a time (WW II I think). Also note I'm not trying to convince anyone to pay tithe from gross or net, just posing a question.

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Re: Tithing

Postby Momma Snider » Thu 06 Sep, 2012 09:12 am

I don't know how it actually was during WWII, but I know that when there's a high tax rate, it's only on the amount over a certain point. So if the rate was 90% on income over $100,000, for example, the first $99,000 would be taxed at a lower rate and only the amount over $100,000 would be at that higher rate.

For whatever that's worth.

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby SDR » Thu 06 Sep, 2012 11:50 am

It has been awhile since I read about it, but if I remember correctly the top marginal rate was 94%, but the total effective rate was 90%. So if you paid so much tax in the top bracket that you hit 90% you were done with the 94% rate.

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Re: Tithing

Postby Momma Snider » Thu 06 Sep, 2012 02:29 pm

I'll have to read about that. So you're saying that if a family made $20,000 a year, probably a good income for back then, they paid $18,000 of it in taxes?

User avatar
Eric's Fat Brother
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 13 Aug, 2002 03:21 pm
Location: Pleasant Grove, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby Eric's Fat Brother » Thu 06 Sep, 2012 03:50 pm

My understanding, which might fit in with what Scott is saying, is along these lines:

Yes, there is a marginal tax rate, but let's say the highest rate kicks in a $200,000, and you make $10,000,000. If that highest marginal rate is 94%, then even if the rate below $200,000 is 0%, you still end up paying $9,212,000 in taxes, which is over 92% of your income.

So yes, marginal taxes rates make things not quite as bad as they seem at first, but "Hey, you only paid 92.12% of your income in tax, not the full 94%!" is kind of a lousy argument, which is why people focus instead on the "Hey, you still made $788,000 after taxes!" argument, because $788,000 is a lot of money that anyone should be happy to have, even if they earned $10 million.

But going back to the original question, if you combine Scott's hypothetical with mine, a person would lose money if they paid 10% of their gross in tithing and 91.12% of their gross in taxes, because 91.12 + 10 > 100.
Jeff J. Snider
"I'm crazy but I get the job done."
***
My NEW weight-loss blog

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby SDR » Fri 07 Sep, 2012 04:01 am

So I looked it up and in 1944 the top marginal tax rate of 94% kicked in at $200,000, but had an absolute cap of 90%. Let's assume one did not have to pay any other taxes other than federal income tax. In that case, if you paid 10% in tithe on your gross income and 90% in taxes, you'd have $0 left over for your other responsibilities. Not quite as bad as EFBJ's hypothetical, but it certainly makes for a difficult situation trying to explain to the wife and kids why there is no food or clothing and why you now have to live under a bridge with trolls.

If one is to pay 10% tithe on their increase, and the government takes in 90% or more of their gross income, I think it would be reasonable to conclude in at least that case that the increase is the net income after taxes. Alternatively, you could give the entirety of your remaining 10% to the church and trust that the church will take care of you and your family.

As I've considered this in the past, I've come to think (and this is just me thinking for myself, not telling anyone how they should account for their income):

1. I don't think Heavenly Father would expect us to abandon caring for ourselves or our families, so
2. In the case outlined above, 10% of net income would be the expected tithe
3. If net income is the increase on which one should tithe when paying 90% in taxes, then net income is the increase when one is only paying 33% to 50% in taxes (and in that case, I'm counting federal, payroll, state income and sales taxes, etc).

This does not mean that we should be cheap and try to nickle and dime our way to paying the smallest tithing possible. And certainly there are other things we are expected to help with financially as much as we are able, such as fast offerings, missionary funds, etc.

I think of "increase" being "discretionary income". We don't have a direct say in how much we are taxed, so that income is non-discretionary. Whatever else we have we get to choose how it is spent, so the first 10% is accounted for.

Again, this is just how I've come to understand these concepts for myself. When I've asked for guidance from ecclesiastical leaders in the past, I've been told that I am to tithe on my increase and that they can't tell me exactly what my increase is. So naturally I have to over think it and make long posts on message boards.

User avatar
Eric's Fat Brother
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 13 Aug, 2002 03:21 pm
Location: Pleasant Grove, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby Eric's Fat Brother » Fri 07 Sep, 2012 07:58 am

Yeah, the Church is very specific in telling leaders not to go into any more detail than "10% of your increase." It is definitely intended to be a decision each person makes for himself or herself.

I have always paid on the gross, but that's mostly because when I started "paying" taxes, I generally got back everything I had paid in a refund, so paying on the gross up front meant I didn't have to pay tithing on my tax refund. That was as much thought as I gave it. I've been thinking a lot about this lately, trying to figure out the right approach, and I've heard a lot of different opinions, including different opinions from people I respect. I even heard about a guy who would calculate his net worth at the end of each year and pay tithing on the "increase" in his net worth, but I don't think that's the right approach for me. :-)
Jeff J. Snider
"I'm crazy but I get the job done."
***
My NEW weight-loss blog

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Re: Tithing

Postby Momma Snider » Fri 07 Sep, 2012 09:01 am

To me, that would be one of those "slippery slope" things. If taxes are non-discretionary, what about an internet connection you have to have for work? Electricity and plumbing? I guess this would all have to be re-thought in the case of a 90% tax, but for now I think, like Jeff, that it's nice to have it all paid and then not have to pay on any tax refund received.

I read about the WWII tax rate, too, and the 90+% rate was only on incomes over $200,000, which I can't imagine could have been very many people back then.

Another thought: the tax rate is on income after basic deductions, so the theoretical zero income after taxes and tithing wouldn't apply. You'd still have your personal exemptions, etc. NOT THAT I'M PROMOTING HIGHER TAXES!!!!

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby SDR » Fri 07 Sep, 2012 10:55 am

I guess I consider everything else discretionary because you choose what to do for a living, how much house to buy, how much utilities to consume, food, etc. You just don't choose to pay taxes.Insert witty comment about Republicans and/or Democrats here.

User avatar
ImAdhis
Posts: 2968
Joined: Wed 15 Oct, 2003 02:51 pm
Location: Here and Now

Re: Tithing

Postby ImAdhis » Sat 08 Sep, 2012 06:04 pm

I am so confused. I had a hard time following the "marginal tax" talk; maybe my brain doesn't want to see it.

I pay tax on gross, I always have a business to lower my tax liabilities, and I pay tithing on the things I sell. Maybe one of those answered the original question.
www.NewMoneyMama.com

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby SDR » Sat 08 Sep, 2012 06:34 pm

Your "tax bracket" is your marginal rate. So if your status is married filing jointly and you have $100,000 adjusted gross income taxable income, you are in the 25% bracket. But you only pay 25% on the income over $70,701 and less than 25% on the income up to $70,701. So while you paid 25% on some of your income, your "effective rate" would be about 17%. Not that it matters.

Edit: "Replaced" adjusted gross income with taxable income. Also note: The effective tax rate I quoted is the effective tax rate on the taxable income. You could calculate an even lower effective rate if considering the total gross income. But this is complicated and boring enough already. Sorry I brought it up. :)
Last edited by SDR on Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Card
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:25 am
Location: Monopoly Board, UT

Re: Tithing

Postby Card » Mon 10 Sep, 2012 11:52 pm

1. SDR - Replace " adjusted gross income" with "taxable income" in your last post.
2. I still want car and Price Is Right opinions instead of gross/net opinions. Just saying.

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby SDR » Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:12 am

I gave my opinions on those subjects above. I just wanted to expand the discussion. Sorry.

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Re: Tithing

Postby Momma Snider » Tue 11 Sep, 2012 09:13 am

I wanted more opinions about those things, too, although I believe my opinion is the Only True Opinion -- until I hear another opinion, and then I may change my mind.

User avatar
Eric's Fat Brother
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 13 Aug, 2002 03:21 pm
Location: Pleasant Grove, UT
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Postby Eric's Fat Brother » Tue 11 Sep, 2012 10:29 am

Here is the only correct answer for the Price is Right question:

You're gonna have to sell all the crap you win anyway in order to pay the taxes on them, so sell it all, pay your taxes, and pay your tithing based on whichever method you've chosen (net or gross).
Jeff J. Snider
"I'm crazy but I get the job done."
***
My NEW weight-loss blog

User avatar
Card
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:25 am
Location: Monopoly Board, UT

Re: Tithing

Postby Card » Tue 11 Sep, 2012 04:09 pm

SDR wrote:I gave my opinions on those subjects above. I just wanted to expand the discussion. Sorry.


No worries. I was just trying to see if anyone had anything else to say. I expected at least someone to be pro-paying on the car proceeds, but I guess not.

Thanks for your responses. On one of those national surveys someone did sometime about religion (sorry, no actual source), I remembered that a majority of mormons said that they would pay tithing on a cash gift but not on, say a gift of a couch, which I thought was kind of weird, as stuff and money are basically equal in my mind as far as tithing is concerned. I never have paid on gifts monetary or otherwise because, like at Christmas, my dad would tell me that he had already paid tithing on that money. So anyway, I guess I realized I was not with the norm of mormondom, according to that survey.

For me, somehow the fact that I'm selling the car made it different in my mind, and I see all of your points, so thanks for the opinions.

Regarding the Price Is Right, the actual retail price is what I figure they put on the tax form when you win, but if you really do sell the stuff for less than what you are taxed on, I can see how it makes sense to just pay tithing on what you made when you sold them.

Thanks, again, for the opinions.


Return to “Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest