Religious rejections of SSM

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ImAdhis
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Postby ImAdhis » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 11:20 am

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you angered that it happened, or are you sad that you missed it?

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Matt
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Postby Matt » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 11:41 am

Editor's Note: As some of you know, Meridian was hacked into last week, apparently by Prop 8 opponents, and in the place of our content was placed a homosexual pornographic film.
Again, I'd be careful about where blame is assigned. We don't know who did this hacking any more than we know who organised a denial of service attack on the "no on 8" website shortly before the election.
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jds88
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Postby jds88 » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 01:53 pm

Adhis, I am shocked--nay, appalled--at the implication.

Matt, I understand the need generally to withhold judgment on specific individuals or organizations. But if you're implying that it wasn't (generally speaking) Prop 8 opponents who burned the BOM (which even local Prop 8 opponents seem to concede as probable), or hacked Meridian, or carried out the powder mailings at the SL and LA temples and the Knights of Columbus printing press in CT (or, for that matter, that it wasn't Prop 8 supporters who hacked the No on 8 website)--frankly, that strikes me as a stretch.

--Jim

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Matt
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Postby Matt » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 02:27 pm

jds88, there are a lot of people out there that commit mischief, particularly online mischief. It would be no surprise to me to find that the Meridian hacking was done by an a-political adolescent who thought it would be funny to stick gay porn on the front page of a site that they knew to be associated with a group that was currently and very visibly opposed to the position held by most gays. I really don't know. The "no on 8" site could just as easily have been attacked by supporters of the "no" side that wanted to generate sympathy for themselves. The white powder could be similarly motivated.

The burning Book of Mormon and graffiti are less ambiguous but it's very hard to determine what motives caused which random acts of harm. Things often aren't what they seem.

More importantly, the handful of incidents of bad behavior on either side is irrelevant. We live in a huge nation. With millions of individuals on either side of the debate, a few incidents of petty vandalism, web site hacking, and physical assaults really don't speak strongly to the validity of the arguments on either side of the issue.
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ImAdhis
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Postby ImAdhis » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 03:08 pm

Matt wrote:Things often aren't what they seem.

More importantly, the handful of incidents of bad behavior on either side is irrelevant. We live in a huge nation. With millions of individuals on either side of the debate, a few incidents of petty vandalism, web site hacking, and physical assaults really don't speak strongly to the validity of the arguments on either side of the issue.


True that.
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Postby steelem » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 03:11 pm

I deleted this. I just can't get into this right now, and on further thought I'm just going to delete my comments and not get involved.
Last edited by steelem on Fri 14 Nov, 2008 04:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Matt
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Postby Matt » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 03:27 pm

Here's a blog that's got a ton of information about the "disagreements" over prop 8...
That's not exactly an unbiased source of information. I've been making a point of not just linking to pro-SSM blogs and web sites. If this just becomes a link battle then no real conversation is going to occur.

I would assume that to make a statement like that, Meridian Magazine probably has a good idea of where the hacking came from.
And I wouldn't assume that. This is why I don't want to argue based on speculation. Did the person who did the hacking oppose prop 8? Probably, but that describes roughly half of the population. Is this person likely part of any organized opposition to prop 8? I doubt it. It would be too risky of a move and couldn't conceivably further its goals in any imaginable way.
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steelem
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Postby steelem » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 04:11 pm

I deleted what I said, because I can't discuss this without emotion.

The idea that the sanctuary of the temple was evacuated over an envelope of white powder is kind of the breaking point for me. It's one thing to protest outside the gates, but that violated the safety of being in the temple. It makes me want to just sit down and cry. So, I'm not going to even dip my toe in who did what when and where. It happened, and it's heartbreaking.
Last edited by steelem on Fri 14 Nov, 2008 04:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Matt
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Postby Matt » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 04:29 pm

If you want to link to a website that shows how the pro-prop 8 people are harrassing the anti prop 8 people, go ahead.
And where would they harrass them? Has it occured to you that perhaps LDS churches have been targeted not because the "no" side has more undisciplined yahoos on their side but because there is no equivalent structures which the yahoos on the "yes" side might be able to assault? The "no" campaign is made up of individuals, not institutions.

*EDIT* <a href="http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4790257">nevermind</a> I guess fires can be started at people's homes too.

I've said this a couple times already, but these incidents have nothing to do with the validity of the arguments. The people that commit them and the people that use them as a jumping off point for editorialising against the other side like the blog that you linked are fanning the flames of a sideshow that is ultimately unimportant. Treat those acts as the crimes that they are and arrest the people responsible, but please don't pretend that they tell us anything about SSM or the character of the people involved in advocating for or against it.
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ImAdhis
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Postby ImAdhis » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 05:24 pm

I'm sorta surprised this topic is still being actively discussed.
Just surprised. That's all I mean.
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~Zesdy~
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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 05:58 pm

Wow, there has been a lot of conincidences lately.

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Matt
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Postby Matt » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 06:11 pm

~Zesdy~ wrote:Wow, there has been a lot of conincidences lately.
:?:
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Matt
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Postby Matt » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 06:22 pm

Too much of the current conversation, including from me, is about the actions of individuals that do not represent the majority of the voices involved and who's actions have no bearing on the actual issue.

Posting a summary of Bad Things done by people who are on one side or the other provides no more useful information than posting random reports of a gay person or Mormon who has done something bad for completely unrelated issues. There are plenty of Mormon criminals in Utah and there are plenty of openly gay criminals in other major cities, so it wouldn't be hard to do that.

I'm going to take a breather from this for a few days. I can only say "so what?" so many times without sounding or feeling like a jerk.
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~Zesdy~
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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 06:33 pm

I trust your intelligence enough to understand my full meaning... even with my misspelling of the word.

Since we are in the religion forum...

There comes a point where enough is enough. That point for Jesus, Himself, was when His Father's home was being desecrated by those using it for a profit.

I won't act because it appears that the people, whoever they may be, are whacking themselves in their own arse.

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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 06:45 pm

Obviously Matt typed another post while I was typing my repsonse. I'm going to give myself a time out too.

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Postby EricDSnider » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 07:01 pm

ImAdhis wrote:I'm sorta surprised this topic is still being actively discussed.
Just surprised. That's all I mean.


I know what you mean. It IS pretty weird that other people are still interested in a topic you're not interested in anymore.

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Postby Ryan Reeder » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 08:07 pm

So now that everybody's leaving, :roll:, and I've waited until ten days after the election, :roll: :roll: I'll go ahead and throw my piece down.

I'm not using a doctrinal justification in support of traditional marriage, because that would only serve to inform why I and those who accept the authority I appeal to would be in favor of not redefining the legal definition of marriage. So I'm going for a secular authority.

The reasoning I'm using was brought to my attention recently through, of all things, a statement from our current Vice-President elect, Joseph R. Biden, during, of all things, the 1987 Bork Supreme Court hearings (Biden was then chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee), about, of all things, a defense of judicial activism.

I believe that all Americans are born with certain inalienable rights, certain God-given rights that they have, not because the Constitution says they have them. I have rights because I exist, in spite of my Government, not because of my Government. My Government does not confer upon me the right to marry, the right to procreate, the right to speak. It protects those rights.

(Biden, Joseph,
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ImAdhis
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Postby ImAdhis » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 08:26 pm

EricDSnider wrote:I know what you mean. It IS pretty weird that other people are still interested in a topic you're not interested in anymore.

I'm extremely interested in the topic, just saying the conversation seems to be looping. Hard to believe, I'm sure, but I'm not THAT egocentric.
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ImAdhis
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Postby ImAdhis » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 08:28 pm

And then Reeder shows up! Good stuff to digest, man.
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Penelope
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Postby Penelope » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 01:24 pm

This article from the Sacramento Bee is both interesting and alarming to me:

http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/1387273.html

In this case, it's not just a few random individuals acting out against a supporter of Prop. 8, but a large organized group. I know there is a lot of pain behind their actions, but I think it's horrible behavior nonetheless.

I'll venture a guess that if you asked this group of theater folks if they would consider themselves to be open minded people, they would say "yes." However, in this case, I'm seeing more of a "I'm open-minded as long as you agree with me!" sort of mentality.
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