Religious rejections of SSM

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Penelope
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Postby Penelope » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 01:28 pm

I should avoid lumping all the theater folks together, though.

This guy is reasonable, for instance:

"There's a great degree of hue and cry over getting Mr. Eckern fired," Whitty wrote. "I've searched my soul about this. I'm instinctively not comfortable with the idea of his dismissal, though my activist side still whispers, 'Punish!'

"I fear for what Mr. Eckern's dismissal would say about theater: that there's only room for the pro-gay crowd. In a way, if we only allow people we agree with, if we only allow people who share a broad sympathy for the human condition, then we become one of those dreaded fantasy 'elites.' "

Then again, he seems pretty sure that only someone who was opposed to Prop 8 could "share a broad sympathy for the human condition."
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Postby WiseNLucky » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 06:27 pm

Penelope wrote:This article from the Sacramento Bee is both interesting and alarming to me:

http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/1387273.html.


Scott Eckern resigned.
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Postby WiseNLucky » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 06:33 pm

A friend in Florida sent me an email telling me that her sister who lives in Los Angeles wrote saying that the situation in California is much worse than the media has been showing, and in fact that the media has edited out a lot of violence by demonstrators. She personally witnessed a 78 year old woman who was beaten with TV cameras right there, but the reporter refused to film it. The sister and her family have locked themselves in their home; they are happy they never donated to the Pro 8 campaign since donors are being targeted by the demonstrators. Police are at the large demonstrations and are taking hours to respond to individual homes that have been targeted. Kind of scary.
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Postby EricDSnider » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 07:05 pm

WiseNLucky wrote:A friend in Florida sent me an email telling me that her sister who lives in Los Angeles wrote saying that the situation in California is much worse than the media has been showing, and in fact that the media has edited out a lot of violence by demonstrators. She personally witnessed a 78 year old woman who was beaten with TV cameras right there, but the reporter refused to film it. The sister and her family have locked themselves in their home; they are happy they never donated to the Pro 8 campaign since donors are being targeted by the demonstrators. Police are at the large demonstrations and are taking hours to respond to individual homes that have been targeted. Kind of scary.



Not to say this sounds like urban legend, but ... it does. It's illogical that "the media" would be intentionally downplaying the violence. TV news loves violence. It's what TV news lives for. They're not going to downplay it just because they're on the same side of gay marriage as the demonstrators (and that's assuming they are). There would have to be some vast Gay Conspiracy that owns "the media." Besides, even if the mainstream media were underreporting the violence, bloggers, YouTubers, and other eyewitnesses wouldn't be. You can't really keep things like massive public violence a secret nowadays. Believe me, I've tried!

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Postby WiseNLucky » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 07:21 pm

EricDSnider wrote:Not to say this sounds like urban legend, but ... it does.


It absolutely does. But the woman in Florida is a very close friend (my former HP Group Leader's wife) and I personally met the sister. She seemed to be a very normal, sane person, and her sister seemed genuinely frightened for her. I wouldn't have made the comment here if I didn't personally know the people.

Nothing about this whole thing makes any sense to me. Do the protesters think their behavior is going to convince people to change their minds in the protesters' favor? :?

You are in a much better position to know how things in California are going than I. I'm sure if you learn anything, either way, you will share it.
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Postby ImAdhis » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 08:53 pm

WiseNLucky wrote: Do the protesters think their behavior is going to convince people to change their minds in the protesters' favor? :?

I can see how some may think that this is enough to teach opponents a lesson. The next time the issue goes to ballot, some SSM opponents may be intimidated enough to not get involved at all.
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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 11:31 pm

Unfortunately people ARE being targeted. And... they happen to be on the list as financial contributors, too.

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Postby Coolboyharrell » Sun 16 Nov, 2008 01:08 am

But as you said, Zes, it's really just one big coincidence.
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Postby WiseNLucky » Sun 16 Nov, 2008 08:43 am

ImAdhis wrote:
WiseNLucky wrote: Do the protesters think their behavior is going to convince people to change their minds in the protesters' favor? :?


I can see how some may think that this is enough to teach opponents a lesson. The next time the issue goes to ballot, some SSM opponents may be intimidated enough to not get involved at all.


I don't know. I was ambivalent at best before the vote. Were I a California resident, I would have voted in favor of the amendment but would not have contributed money or worked for the campaign. My attitude is much different now. It has become clear who the haters really are. This kind of behavior cannot and should not be condoned by anyone.
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Postby Lowdoggy Dogg » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 06:45 am

~Zesdy~ wrote:Unfortunately people ARE being targeted. And... they happen to be on the list as financial contributors, too.


My brother-in-law gave money. He works at Morgan Stanley and his boss received a letter (that appeared to be a form letter) stating that since he (my bro-in-law) works there the writer would never do business at Morgan Stanley. He has noticed people cool upon hearing he went to BYU, and he is concerned that some of his very good clients, who are gay, will leave him.

Next time they will donate in my sis-in-law's name.

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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 08:53 am

Businesses are one thing (and I'm sorry your bro-in-law's work, which could be very good, is being impacted) but what bothers me is the direct targeting being done at churches, temples, and people's homes.

And if anyone says it is some unorganized group of individuals... obviously he or she has some blinders on... preferably ones made for donkeys. There is something about a limo full of people going around at night doing things that spells organization.

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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 09:45 am

Also, if I were a husband, I don't think I would like to use my wife's name. I think a made-up name could be fun. :D

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Postby Penelope » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 09:46 am

Lowdoggy Dogg wrote:
~Zesdy~ wrote:Unfortunately people ARE being targeted. And... they happen to be on the list as financial contributors, too.


My brother-in-law gave money. He works at Morgan Stanley and his boss received a letter (that appeared to be a form letter) stating that since he (my bro-in-law) works there the writer would never do business at Morgan Stanley. He has noticed people cool upon hearing he went to BYU, and he is concerned that some of his very good clients, who are gay, will leave him.

Next time they will donate in my sis-in-law's name.


It's one thing to boycott a business owned or run by a contributor, but this strikes me as going too far. It's punishing a business for the political contribution of an employee. It makes some sense that your brother-in-law's gay clients might want to leave him. However, boycotting his employer is tantamount to demanding that Morgan Stanley either fire your brother-in-law or suffer financial losses.

I don't know that there's anything illegal about this, but it seems to be crossing the line from protest to witch hunt.
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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 10:04 am

I didn't even think of it that way, Penelope. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it.

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Postby WiseNLucky » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 10:50 am

Since this is the religion forum, I don't think it's inappropriate to post the following comments from a 1978 talk given to BYU students by Elder Neal A. Maxwell

Make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters, in the months and years ahead, events are likely to require each member to decide whether or not he will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions. . .

We are now entering a time of incredible ironies. Let us cite but one of these ironies which is yet in its subtle stages: We will see a maximum, if indirect, effort made to establish irreligion as the state religion. It is actually a new form of paganism which uses the carefully preserved and cultivated freedoms of western civilization to shrink freedom, even as it rejects the value essence of our rich Judeo-Christian heritage.

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Postby ~Zesdy~ » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 11:15 am

The latest "Snide Remarks" cloumn is really funny, Eric. And it is pretty much equated, which I really love. There is only one point that I didn't find that so, however. In the column it was not mentioned how much was raised by opponents of Prop 8. I thought that amount was impressive as well and wondered why it didn't make it in there.

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Postby Lowdoggy Dogg » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 11:20 am

WiseNLucky wrote:Since this is the religion forum, I don't think it's inappropriate to post the following comments from a 1978 talk given to BYU students by Elder Neal A. Maxwell

Quote

The bold section is my emphasis. Kinda gave me chills reading this talk which was given 30 years ago.


One of his greatest talks. I can't believe I'd forgotten how perfectly it relates to this era. I even have a little book with this talk and "Notwithstaning My Weakness."

Thanks for highlighting this.

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Postby lilcis » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 11:36 am

WiseNLucky wrote:A friend in Florida sent me an email telling me that her sister who lives in Los Angeles wrote saying that the situation in California is much worse than the media has been showing, and in fact that the media has edited out a lot of violence by demonstrators. She personally witnessed a 78 year old woman who was beaten with TV cameras right there, but the reporter refused to film it. The sister and her family have locked themselves in their home; they are happy they never donated to the Pro 8 campaign since donors are being targeted by the demonstrators. Police are at the large demonstrations and are taking hours to respond to individual homes that have been targeted. Kind of scary.


I live near Los Angeles (in LA County) and I'd have to say that's a gross exaggeration of what's going on here. It is sad to see how much hatred is coming out of this.
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Penelope
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Postby Penelope » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 11:48 am

Very thought-provoking, WNL.

I spent far too much time reading about Prop. 8 and the fallout on the internets this weekend. I read everything from newspaper articles to blogs to political websites. I certainly can't say in honesty that I read as a completely unbiased observer--I'm not that for sure--but I tried to be fair-minded and look for opinions on both sides.

I quickly dismissed ultra-extreme opinions from anyone as unworthy of much thought. (I'm talking about things along the lines of "Kill all the Mormons" or "Burn in hell, homos").

I was surprised, though, by the large number of comments/posts/commentaries that condemned religion in general and suggested that religion is ridiculous at best.

There were quite a few along the lines of, "religion is responsible for everything bad that mankind has done" and/or "this country and this world would be better off without religion."

I agree that many, many terrible things have been done in the name of religion and still are today. However, to blame all hatred and evil on religion is ridiculous. Not only is that idea discounting the good that religion has done in the lives of individuals and societies, but it ignores the atrocities committed under the umbrellas of Communism, Fascism and other religion-free dogmas.

To think that doing away with religion would create a Utopian society is just absurd.

I am troubled by religious zealots and the potential they have to wreak havoc on society, but I'm also worried about those at the other end of the spectrum.
Religious people don't have a corner on self-righteousness, hypocrisy, intolerance or hatred.

I have to keep reminding myself that the internet at large is kind of a cesspool of crazy, though, and often the voices that are loudest and most persistent there are of those with fringe views. Newspaper comments sections, for example, are rife with stupidity and extremism. Not to mention, the anonymous nature of much of internet discourse allows and encourages people to spout things they would never say or act upon in real life. Then you have to account for the fact that there are rabble-rousers who only want to make trouble and stir the pot and may in fact not be who they say they are.

It's for these reasons that I haven't commented on the Prop 8 issue on any blogs or news sites. I don't see the point. People just talk circles around each other and nobody (that I can tell) is interested in considering anyone else's opinion or engaging in thoughtful discussion. (This forum is one exception to that, though, in my opinion.)
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Penelope
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Postby Penelope » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 11:59 am

I was highly entertained by today's Snide Remarks. It may have been Eric's most all-inclusive mockfest to date. I think he spared his Momma, though. He's such a softy.

I loved Stephen Colbert's opening joke on the November 11th episode of Colbert Nation, too:


http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertrep ... eId=210310
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