Will Mormons save America?

The place for religious discussions -- doctrinal or cultural, Mormon or otherwise.

Moderators: Lady Celtic, Eric's Moderator Brother, seespot, Sara without the H

User avatar
The Don
Posts: 1738
Joined: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:04 am
Location: Ohio (But NOT the midwest.)

Will Mormons save America?

Postby The Don » Fri 07 Aug, 2009 11:36 am

Over at Slate they've been doing a series of articles contemplating what the fall of America might look like and how it would happen. In the latest article the author suggests that, if American society were to collapse, Mormon society would be the one to maintian American ideals and culture.

A very interesting article.
http://www.slate.com/id/2224050/
I like traffic lights.

User avatar
Lady Celtic
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sat 08 Feb, 2003 07:51 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Lady Celtic » Fri 07 Aug, 2009 01:27 pm

Interesting article indeed! I didn't know we believed that the United States would not endure, however (last paragraph on the first page). Can someone clarify that point for me?
You're unique, just like everyone else!

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Postby SDR » Fri 07 Aug, 2009 03:02 pm

Thanks for the link, it was nice to read something so even handed.

As for the belief that the United States would not endure, see http://emp.byui.edu/venemag/CONSTITUTIO ... THREAD.DOC which gives a scholarly report on what was said, when, and by whom.

In short:

An occasional theme among Latter-day Saints during times of political crisis has been the prediction attributed to Joseph Smith that the U.S. Constitution would one day hang by a thread and that the elders of the Church would at some critical juncture be instrumental in saving it. The source of this statement is thought to be an unpublished address titled,

User avatar
Lady Celtic
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sat 08 Feb, 2003 07:51 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Lady Celtic » Sat 08 Aug, 2009 07:47 am

Thanks, Scott. The "Constitution hanging by a thread" bit I'd heard and discussed before, but personally, I hadn't associated it with governmental overthrow. I think the latter part is more conjecture or personal interpretation of the prophecy than an actual prediction.
You're unique, just like everyone else!

User avatar
AdamOndi
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri 26 May, 2006 11:29 pm
Location: Universal City, TX (Outside of San Antonio)
Contact:

Postby AdamOndi » Sat 08 Aug, 2009 09:08 am

That was an interesting article. However, I disagree with some of the things mentioned at the end. In particular, this line:

If America goes under, LDS scholar Michael Austin says, regional strains of Mormonism might develop "without the pressure from Salt Lake City to keep everything coordinated."


I am pretty sure that when the end times really do come, the Church won't have us all sit out in our far-flung stakes and wards. They will call for us to gather in Missouri and build Zion. There would no longer be pressure from Salt Lake City, since the Church would move its headquarters to Zion. Anyone left behind (probably by their own choice) might devolve into "regional strains of Mormonism," but the majority of the faithful members of the Church would try to leave and gather to build the New Jerusalem.
Check out our blog [url=http://adamandlisahansen.blogspot.com]at this link[/url].

User avatar
The Don
Posts: 1738
Joined: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:04 am
Location: Ohio (But NOT the midwest.)

Postby The Don » Sat 08 Aug, 2009 10:24 am

I've always been under the impression that not everyone would be gathered to Missouri and that we've been exorted to establish Zion in our own stakes and congregations.
I like traffic lights.

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Postby Momma Snider » Sat 08 Aug, 2009 11:19 am

That's definitely what they've been saying for a while now, The Don. Our stakes ARE Zion. Some people will need to go to Missouri, but most of us will stay where we are and be who we should be in our own areas.

I remember my Sunday School teacher when I was a little girl, telling us how we would all have to walk to Jackson County, and I could never understand why we couldn't drive, if we had to go. She told us it would be while I was still a child. Of course she also told us that there would be an atomic bomb dropped on us by Christmas of that year...probably around 1960.

User avatar
SDR
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 03:02 pm
Location: Hooper, UT
Contact:

Postby SDR » Sat 08 Aug, 2009 12:52 pm

I didn't take that article's statements to mean an overthrow of our government. I think it more likely at this point (not that I'm thinking it really likely or very near term) that the US would collapse under its own weight, not unlike what happened to the Soviet Union. We certainly spent ourselves to the edge of bankruptcy in the process of bankrupting the Soviet Union, and the last decade (and especially the last year) have done little or nothing to help that.

User avatar
WiseNLucky
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu 22 Sep, 2005 09:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Contact:

Postby WiseNLucky » Sun 09 Aug, 2009 09:13 am

Lady Celtic wrote:Interesting article indeed! I didn't know we believed that the United States would not endure, however (last paragraph on the first page). Can someone clarify that point for me?


I always thought we believed that the US would endure, but that we would have a help make sure it happened.
WiseNLucky

Horizontally gifted since . . . .

User avatar
Lady Celtic
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sat 08 Feb, 2003 07:51 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Lady Celtic » Sun 09 Aug, 2009 12:52 pm

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking.
You're unique, just like everyone else!

User avatar
shrff
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu 21 Aug, 2003 04:38 pm
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Contact:

Postby shrff » Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:22 pm

I also think that the idea that all Church members will be called to Missouri is not an accurate description of what will happen after the Second Coming. One of the arguments against this is the huge infrastructure of chapels, temples, etc. that the Church is building world-wide. It wouldn't be very efficient to lock the doors and walk away from all of this (although, Church History tells of similar incidents occurring).

There are other logistical problems too. For one, I don't think everyone in the Church would fit in that area too well from a food production standpoint.

There are a few ideas like this that I believe are holdovers from the time where the Church was pretty isolated in Utah. Others include a hemispherical model for the Book of Mormon, with North America being the land northward and South America being the land southward. Another is the idea that there will be a long-term interruption in social organization and infrastructure following the Second Coming.

If I ever make it back to the BYU as a faculty member, I'd like to do an anthropological study of Church members world-wide to investigate some of these beliefs and try to trace them back historically. I'm willing to bet that many of these concepts are pretty restricted to the North American Church, specifically to people with family ties in Utah.
"I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos!" Walter Sobchak
shrff.blogspot.com

User avatar
WiseNLucky
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu 22 Sep, 2005 09:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Contact:

Postby WiseNLucky » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 06:18 am

shrff wrote:There are other logistical problems too. For one, I don't think everyone in the Church would fit in that area too well from a food production standpoint.


They would if they were part of a catastrophic decimation of the species. The descriptions of the end of times sound pretty dramatic to me. Back in the 1970s we always thought in terms of nuclear war, but perhaps there could be a large meteor strike or something similar. Or widespread seismic activity like what happened in the BOM at the time of Christ's death. I certainly get the impression that lots of people will suddenly die from the scriptural descriptions.
WiseNLucky



Horizontally gifted since . . . .

User avatar
AdamOndi
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri 26 May, 2006 11:29 pm
Location: Universal City, TX (Outside of San Antonio)
Contact:

Postby AdamOndi » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:07 am

shrff wrote:There are other logistical problems too. For one, I don't think everyone in the Church would fit in that area too well from a food production standpoint.


This also assumes that all of the surviving members of the Church would actually pick up and go. Considering that less than half of the people on the Church records are actually active, and I doubt that even all of the active members would pick up and move, the logistics become a little easier to manage.
Check out our blog [url=http://adamandlisahansen.blogspot.com]at this link[/url].

~Zesdy~
Posts: 7816
Joined: Tue 10 Dec, 2002 05:42 am

Postby ~Zesdy~ » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:41 am

Will Mormons save America?


Not if they have a prideful, power-hungry, I've-got-all-the-riches-and-therefore-better-than-everyone-else-and-I-should-add-I'm-smarter-and-better-looking-than-you-and-therefore-own-you attitude.

User avatar
Coolboyharrell
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 02:35 am
Location: Fork. American Fork

Postby Coolboyharrell » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:58 am

~Zesdy~ wrote:Not if they have a prideful, power-hungry, I've-got-all-the-riches-and-therefore-better-than-everyone-else-and-I-should-add-I'm-smarter-and-better-looking-than-you-and-therefore-own-you attitude.


BAM!

This is very true. There are a lot of us that need a healthy slice of Humble Pie. Otherwise, Mormons won't be very capable of doing anything other than being xenophobes.
If you call me cheap, I'll call you correct.
I'm now blogging, like a good little library worker

User avatar
KareNin
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon 19 Aug, 2002 02:22 pm
Location: On the Lower Rungs of the socio-economic ladder
Contact:

Postby KareNin » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 01:40 pm

Well said, Coolboy. Not that I would FOR ONE MINUTE accuse anyone on this Board of being prideful of their riches or their intelligence, or anything similar.

Anyhow--what about someone like me, except really, really righteous, who for physical reasons unrelated to living the Word of Wisdom, can no longer "walk, and not faint," much less "run, and not be weary"?

BIG THEORETICAL IF I were told to walk to Jackson County, MO, I might just as well say "Thank you, but no, I wouldn't get any farther than my neighbor's driveway before falling down." (This is based on actual experience while trying to retrieve my escaped dog.)

SURELY there will be some other provisions made for those who can no longer physically walk long distances.
Have a nice day, unless you already have other plans.

User avatar
Card
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:25 am
Location: Monopoly Board, UT

Postby Card » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:21 pm

And don't forget about people like me who would be like "... too lazy... can't walk... just leave me to die..."

User avatar
Coolboyharrell
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 02:35 am
Location: Fork. American Fork

Postby Coolboyharrell » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:06 pm

KareNin wrote:Anyhow--what about someone like me, except really, really righteous, who for physical reasons unrelated to living the Word of Wisdom, can no longer "walk, and not faint," much less "run, and not be weary"?


I would come get you.
If you call me cheap, I'll call you correct.

I'm now blogging, like a good little library worker

User avatar
ImAdhis
Posts: 2968
Joined: Wed 15 Oct, 2003 02:51 pm
Location: Here and Now

Postby ImAdhis » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 07:44 pm

Coolboyharrell wrote:I would come get you.

C'mon, KareNin! Don't you have some pretty little relative for this young man to wed??

AdamOndi wrote:This also assumes that all of the surviving members of the Church would actually pick up and go. Considering that less than half of the people on the Church records are actually active, and I doubt that even all of the active members would pick up and move, the logistics become a little easier to manage.


Also, I have learned a big lesson this week: People say they will do anything for Jesus, except change wards. I can't imagine the hoopla for abandoning homes and crossing state lines.
www.NewMoneyMama.com

User avatar
Momma Snider
Posts: 9072
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2002 08:50 am

Postby Momma Snider » Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:27 pm

I'm agreeing with Shrff that all the temple-building and stake organizing that's going on now would be a waste if everyone really had to go to Missouri, even if it was only the "active" members who went. Plus, missionary work is still going to be happening. I don't think that's going to be left to those who won't or can't go.


Return to “Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests